Author Topic: Basic List...  (Read 6071 times)

Battlewagon

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Basic List...
« on: December 04, 2012, 08:03:54 am »
As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a coder so much, but am an enthusiastic SR fan of 23 years.  Having played all three games this week, these details come to mind...

-Following the modern-day trend in gaming, SR3 should probably have the option of never ending, so that people can build their cars indefinitely, particularly for the proposed multiplayer mode.  SR1 and 2 were very 1980's in that you could finish them in a few hours, but this is disappointing today.

-Speaking of that, multiplayer should be done right (a reliable way to host games without a central server, Teamspeex-style communications, etc.), both to make the game more enjoyable and to attract additional developers.  In open source game development, social networking is crucial, and at the moment this project is suffering from a lack of participants.

-The decals should include flames.  This is obvious, isn't it?   :)

-Fix the sound, and please don't add cheesy music like in the SR1 and 2.   :D  Don't worry, I know you're working on this.  Support for user MP3's via the radio is in line with what was done with Redline, and would be more welcome.  Redline actually took this a step further by being integrated with iTunes.

-In SR2, Chevy lacked an entry-level car.  It seems obvious, therefore, that SR3 should have a Nova, a Corvair, or both.  The Corvair would require a flat-six engine and a turbocharger, but these would be easy to make.  The weight distribution should be made to be accurate, too, but that I assume will be in the new physics model.  The Nova, however, would be the more important of these two, as it was a favorite with hot rodders.

-I noticed that the alpha does not yet support 6-barrel carbs, triple intakes, superchargers, or fuel injection.  SR2 at least had FI and superchargers, so I assume it's coming.  I'm just making sure....  Nitrous would be another obvious mod to add.

-I've already "built" a Pontiac Tempest for SR3, and I can do a Plymouth Satellite, too.   ;D  Please, let's not have a 6-cylinder Deuce, GTO, or Roadrunner.   ;D

-All three SR versions fail to accurately depict the speeds involved.  SR1 and 2 limit you to 120 m.p.h., which is accurate for a 1950's American sedan or wagon like an original Crown Vic or Country Squire (or something with a 4.11 differential), but far less so for a Corvette, Chrysler 300, or Charger.  One variant of the real 300 could hit 160 bone stock, after all.  The alpha of SR3 is just the opposite, in that a car with a "small" engine can blow away something with a "large" engine, reaching speeds in excess of 160.  This will probably be fixed in the new physics model, but is worth remembering.  Modern car simulations, even NFS, can easily get this right (even if the NFS cars are not accurate depictions of the specific real-life cars), so SR3 should as well. 

-The same as the above should apply to things like burnouts, donuts, torque steer, racking, body roll (crucial for depicting American cars of this era), and spinouts.  Amazingly, SR2 could simulate drifting, if crudely and without wheelspin, which is impressive when you consider SR was the same era.  Neither Test Drive version of the 1980's (1 and 2) could do this, although TD2 could do slides.  However, hot rods aren't much fun with NFS-style physics.  Redline was far better than NFS, TD, or SR in that a six-cylinder was really bland, while an L88 could burn through all four gears, write or draw on the pavement in skidmarks, throttle steer sideways, and envelop itself in smoke.  That, I think, is exactly what we want, plus loud and realistic sound.   :)  Redline also had handbrake simulation, which would be a cool thing to have in SR3. 

-Although traditional hot rodders scoffed at spending money on good brakes, they are a realistic part of racing.  Hopefully there will be ways to upgrade them?

-Modding of the game should be made easy, but this is obvious nowadays, isn't it?

-I noticed that SR2 used to always have an ad for a Desoto in the margins.  Perhaps just for the fact this car was so ridiculed.....it should be included.   ;D  I could make it, if I have the time.  A Studebaker, Packard, Hudson, Nash, or Edsel would be interesting too, although it would be possible to get carried away...

-Every big-three brand was in SR2....except Cadillac, Lincoln, and Buick.  The model choices here are obvious:  Eldorado, Continental Mk.III, and Electra 225 (although a Riviera or '53 Skylark would also be great).

-Basic engine blocks to add (as of the SR3 alpha):  Pontiac 400; Ford 221 (for the Deuce); Chevy 283, 327, 350, and 427 (for the cars already in the alpha, plus the classic 327); Mopar 318, 383, and 426; Ford 302, 427, 428 (for the GT500), and 429; Olds 455.  If a Cadillac is eventually built, having a 500 would be great, too.  I presume that add-on developers could add dozens more of these, but I think the above would be ideal for the built-in engines. 

-More transmissions are needed.  This is something obvious, but the built-in variety needn't be immense.  Seven trannys would do if game modding is easy, as each of the big three needs an auto and a 4sp, and there needs to be the existing 3sp for the Deuce.  I've already done an M22 4sp., a T10 4sp., and a Powerglide, and the first two of these could be any manufacturer, so theoretically the next alpha could get by with only three, the Ford 3sp, the T10 or M22, and the Powerglide.

-Crate engines, anyone?  They already existed in the 1960's, and Chevy in particular built a range of them, including the 377, the original 409, the 427 HD, and the 433 CanAm.  Indeed, hot rodding was the only thing that crate engines were for.

I think I'm out of the obvious things for now...

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 08:01:52 pm »
Half if not most of everything you said is already planned. then again i barley even skimmed that wall of text. the sr3 alhpa with no sound is being dropped so that makes the suggestion about sounds moot. the idea was to have decent sound effects and good/decent music.

Though out the years we have had people volunteer to make us few tracks but, as far as i know they forgot and never followed through out.

Battlewagon

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 11:22:37 pm »
Well...I never even got into the tracks.  Actually, that's an interesting question since Street Rod 2 only had three.  I never minded that too much, since hot rods aren't great track cars.  I missed more being able to play forever (the game ended), and being able to add cars and other mods.  Some of the modding is in-game, of course, and some of it is usually in Blender and a text editor.   :)

As I've already said, I've already written some mods for SR3, but the problem is.......I don't know if what I'm writing is any good.  The new alpha will clearly be a bit different, since it will have to be in order for the mods to be accurate.  I could send you a list, but the mods aren't going to be ready until I can have a list of specifications for how to write them.  In other words, we need a Wiki, but I understand that you can't write one until you've made a final decision on the engine and made some basic plans about how much more code you need on top of the engine, what it will look like, etc. 

My mods do work in the current Alpha....to the extent that it allows anything to work.  As I've said, I gave the cars authentic engines, made them fully drivable and theoretically more accurate, made opponent versions, and made a Pontiac Tempest so that if you really wanted a 6-cylinder "GTO," then it wouldn't be so ridiculous.  I doubt the GTO body model is fully accurate, though, with all of the scoops on it.  Finally, I added three additional transmissions, a Powerglide, an M22, and a T10.  The transmissions came out the best because the existing Alpha has much better support for them than for engines and differentials.

Don't worry about my writing stuff once I get going.  I have the record for number of cars developed for Redline, although a lot of them were mods of mods.  :-)  The bigger problem is all the stuff I didn't finish, after the 70-some-odd (I think) cars that I made.  I honestly lost count.  I never finished the Le Mans track, for example, and several of the cars still need tweaking since they have problems with them, and I'm tempted to go back to the Ambrosia boards and finish what I started.  I just have to figure out how to get an old Mac that isn't dying, or figure out how to emulate one.

SR3 is sort of a chance to continue building stuff, basically, as I've done Redline to death and now I can't run it anyway.

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 02:41:49 am »
we always need content builders but, as you said the hold up is the core of the game, the engine.

Maxaxle

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2012, 05:43:09 pm »
As for tracks, what if we started by outlining a city in which the game takes place, then make tracks based on the city? We wouldn't necessarily have to define where it is, though both SR games took place in Somewhere, California, in a really small town with one dedicated garage and a diner.

I only mention this because, as nice as Benevolent Architecture is, it's kinda jarring to have a simple two-lane street followed directly with a 4-lane highway or a suddenly-narrowing road (i.e. tunnel or bridge).

Benevolent Architecture: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BenevolentArchitecture

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 10:50:26 pm »
we already have out line what cities the game will take place in. the problem was deciding to get with tracks or maps or something in between.

Maxaxle

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 12:41:51 am »
we already have out line what cities the game will take place in. the problem was deciding to get with tracks or maps or something in between.
What do you mean? "Maps" as in "have a fully-rendered section of city to race on" or "render the entire city but set it up so that only part of it can be driven in during the race"? "Tracks" as in "a usually inaccessible "part of the city" set up for racing, which doesn't show up while cruising around at random?

Street Rod 2 featured a dragstrip that couldn't be accessed unless you signed up for Grudge Night, so maybe we have a track or two outside of the city limits, with only the road to said track(s) shown on the map?

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 05:15:12 am »
we already have out line what cities the game will take place in. the problem was deciding to get with tracks or maps or something in between.
What do you mean? "Maps" as in "have a fully-rendered section of city to race on" or "render the entire city but set it up so that only part of it can be driven in during the race"? "Tracks" as in "a usually inaccessible "part of the city" set up for racing, which doesn't show up while cruising around at random?


What you just asked is pretty much where we were at on the old SR3, with that very question. the old sr3 wasn't advanced enough for us to start coming up with any solutions.

Maxaxle

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 02:25:47 pm »
What you just asked is pretty much where we were at on the old SR3, with that very question. the old sr3 wasn't advanced enough for us to start coming up with any solutions.
Assuming the new SR3 is advanced enough, what would your solution be? I'd prefer the "have a fully-rendered section of the city to race on" type, or, if the engine and player's computer can handle it, an outright full render of the city with "go back" indicators if the player goes in the wrong direction (though the only thing keeping them from running away is the threat of forfeiting their wager, a loss of reputation, and a worse laptime if they go back to the track within 10 seconds), Driver: Parallel-Lines-ish style (I use that particular example because no official GTA game penalizes you for running away from the race).

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2012, 07:20:50 am »
well the hard part is figuring out how to block off the parts you can't go to with out being too bold, ie invisible walls and or arrows.

Maxaxle

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 11:20:47 pm »
well the hard part is figuring out how to block off the parts you can't go to with out being too bold, ie invisible walls and or arrows.

Sometimes you have to be bold, but on the other hand letting the player navigate as they please could be a good thing. Invisible walls and areas that force the player to reset aren't necessarily a good thing, but the kind of thing that points out the correct course is, so long as the player has a say in the matter. Perhaps the following could be toggled on/off:
Code: [Select]
1. Navigation Arrows: Brightly-colored, solid-translucency one points towards next checkpoint, faded and translucent arrow points towards checkpoint after that one. This one's not too easy, AFAIK.
2. Checkpoints: Could be physical (think cones, signs, or outright racing-style checkpoints) or projections (any shape that cannot be collided with, or could even just be a figment of the player's HUD). Could even be place-able by players, with a map or minimap function. Should be fairly easy.
3. Arrow-walls: Flat projections that are mostly transparent, but include arrows pointing in the direction of the course/next checkpoint. Meant as barriers to players that would otherwise get lost. Guesstimated difficulty: middle-of-the-road.
4. Driving Line: The line that 'bots would follow, but projected for the player's convenience. With actual AI-followed driving lines (that are normally invisible to the player), simply setting them to "visible" could be easier done than said. Think Gran Turismo or Forza if you need an example. Some racing sims also allow for these guides.
5. Pop-up HUD roadsigns: Look at any '90s rally racing game where realism is key. This one's not too difficult AFAIK. Example: [url=http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/736/PC+Rally.html]http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/736/PC+Rally.html[/url]
6. Highlighted road: I've never seen this before, but think either an on-and-off glowing road that would lead to the next checkpoint (could be modified to accommodate multiple roads), or a color filter that would turn all other roads black and white (includes reflections, etc.) and leave the intended road unchanged. This method would probably be the most difficult to implement.

cdoublejj

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 03:14:13 am »
in shadowrun for the sega they used road blocks. Also all roads that lead no where could just take to the next city, with road signs stating so.

Maxaxle

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Re: Basic List...
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 03:45:42 pm »
in shadowrun for the sega they used road blocks. Also all roads that lead no where could just take to the next city, with road signs stating so.
ALL OF MY YES, but perhaps it should require an amount of gas, and require that the car be able to make the journey?